“A sociedade não precisa de advogados empresariais”, afirma novo diretor da Faculdade de Direito da UCSal

O advogado, professor universitário e procurador do Estado da Bahia, Raimundo Luiz de Andrade, assume na manhã desta segunda-feira (03) a direção da Faculdade de Direito da Universidade Católica de Salvador/UCSAL, instituição que experimentou recentemente um processo eleitoral cujo resultado mais expressivo foi a nomeação de um novo reitor, 28 anos depois do domínio de um mesmo grupo político cuja gestão – “desastrosa”, como afirmam muitos – foi sendo duramente criticada por alunos e professores em função dos prejuízos que causou. Dono de vasta experiência na área de ensino e de direção de escolas de Direito, Raimundo Andrade tem uma missão homérica, para a qual parece estar técnica e emocionalmente preparado, conforme revelou em entrevista exclusiva ao Blog do Fábio Sena. Dono de uma memória prodigiosa, de um riquíssimo vocabulário e de uma formidável simplicidade – mesmo no trato dos temas mais complexos –, o novo diretor da Faculdade de Direito é um homem objetivo: desprovido de talento para tergiversações, ele vai fundo nas questões, direto no ponto, e apimenta qualquer debate com uma sinceridade, às vezes, desconcertante. Engajado politicamente – ele já foi marxista, titubeou depois da queda do Muro de Berlim, mas já reafirmou seu materialismo dialético –, esse sergipano de São Cristóvão acredita piamente numa educação emancipatória, como queria Paulo Freire. E é isso que vai buscar implementar no curso de Direito da Católica, além, claro, dos saltos de qualidade que projetarão a universidade para outro status: a ideia é que a Católica passe a se integrar ao grupo da PUC, “mas para isso tem uma longa caminhada, saneando as suas finanças, melhorando a competitividade, sobretudo ampliando a sua pesquisa científica e sua inserção na sociedade”. Moderado, ele não acredita numa revolução, mas na renovação, “sobretudo uma renovação passo a passo, centrada, para que não venha colocar mais em risco a instituição”. As reflexões do professor Raimundo Andrade – um homem de seu tempo –, sempre atento às questões basilares do Estado brasileiro, conduzirão o leitor, fatalmente, a também refletir acerca das múltiplas dimensões do que significa formar-se em Direito num país com forte tendência à transgressão e que desenvolveu o hábito de produzir leis em série na tentativa de sanear conflitos. “Nossa Constituição é um Tratado. Na minha área, inclusive, o Direito Tributário, não tem nenhuma Nação no mundo que tenha tantas regras constitucionais tributárias, muitas de garantia do contribuinte. Mas não tem também um país no mundo que tenha tanto desrespeito aos direitos do cidadão como no Brasil. O que fazer como existe um conflito? Editar uma lei. É muito mais fácil editar uma lei do que mudar comportamentos, mudar a ética, mudar cultura”. Leia, na íntegra, a entrevista que o professor Raimundo Andrade concedeu com exclusividade ao Blog do Fábio Sena:

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: Quem é Raimundo Luiz de Andrade?

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: Sou sergipano, nasci em São Cristóvão, mas vim para a Bahia há muito tempo quando fiz concurso público para fiscal do Estado, depois fiz concurso para Procurador do Estado da Bahia, e já sou procurador há mais de 25 anos. Já fui professor da Universidade Federal de Sergipe e, quando cheguei aqui, terminei me integrando. Sempre gostei de ensinar, tenho formação em Direito, tenho mestrado em Direito Público na PUC de São Paulo, onde estou concluindo o Doutorado, na fase final da defesa, também em Direito Público, nessa área mais de Direito Tributário, Político etc. Vim para a Bahia por conta do concurso público, aí tive que sair da Universidade Federal de Sergipe e, quando cheguei aqui, busquei uma instituição que pudesse me abrigar nessa propensão minha que era a sala de aula. Aí surgiu a oportunidade de um concurso na Católica; naquela época foi um dos poucos concursos que a Católica fez, em 2000. Fiz o concurso e fui aprovado em 1º lugar para a cadeira de Ciência Política e Teoria Geral do Estado, mas acabei migrando para as cadeiras de Direito Público Tributário e Constitucional. Além dessa experiência da Católica, onde ensino desde 2000, em algum momento da vida eu fui chamado para fazer parte do ensino jurídico, primeiro como consultor da Consultec, que tinha aqui e era uma empresa de consultoria de Salvador, conceituada, e depois eu ajudei a montar a Faculdade Hélio Rocha, e foi uma experiência que não foi para frente com o curso de Direito por conta dos padrões da época, uma vez que o MEC era muito rígido. Depois fui convidado para montar a Faculdade Ruy Barbosa, e foi uma experiência muito boa em minha vida, onde tive a oportunidade de construir uma instituição, um curso, uma faculdade desde o seu nascedouro, pensando antes mesmo da faculdade existir como seria, implantando núcleos de cidadania, e aí me integrei ao Movimento de Ensino de Direito do Brasil, da Associação Brasileira de Direito, e fui membro da diretoria, e comecei a fazer parte, participando de congressos e discussões, e na Ruy Barbosa construímos o curso de Direito, que sempre teve boa tradição na Bahia, quando era do grupo antigo, formado por professores, como o professor Antônio Pádua e Eduardo Sabbag, por exemplo, que eram professores da Ufba que montaram a instituição que tinha a finalidade de ser excelência naquilo que se propunha. Aí construímos o curso de Direito, que desde o início até o final foi considerado o segundo melhor curso de faculdades privadas do Brasil. Isso através de rankings do exame da OAB, onde os alunos pontuavam e me lembro até que a primeira turma teve quase 80% de aprovação, a segunda quase 100%. Aí o curso começou a ser reconhecido nacionalmente como um dos melhores cursos de Direito, mas não só pela qualidade da excelência do ensino, mas, sobretudo pela inserção comunitária, à pesquisa, e aí esse projeto se destacou, e a partir daí fui chamado para diversas entidades, mas continuei dando aula na Católica.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: Você assume nesta segunda-feira a direção da Faculdade de Direito da Universidade Católica de Salvador. O que tem em perspectiva para o curso?

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: O primeiro ponto é que a Universidade Católica está saindo de uma gestão de quase 28 anos de um mesmo grupo. Digamos que houve uma exaustão administrativa, porque você ficar tanto tempo no poder é sempre uma acomodação de setores, então isso levou a UCSAL a ir perdendo posições no ranking nacional. A UCSAL, para você ter uma ideia, em 2005 tinha quase 17 mil alunos, hoje tem cerca 8 mil alunos. A inadimplência da universidade é muito alta, isso tudo não se deve apenas à gestão de quase 28 anos, mas também pela mudança no cenário da Educação no Brasil. Só que esse grupo que ficou lá não se planejou, não se preparou e não soube planejar e se adequar a essas mudanças; por exemplo, a abertura do ensino superior para diversos grupos, a concorrência, grupos internacionais chegando. Mas a Católica tem um ponto positivo que é justamente a marca. É uma instituição sólida, que não visa o lucro como finalidade, ela tem uma função social muito grande, é claro, pelos trabalhos que presta. Mas com a gestão muito longeva ela veio sofrendo algumas mazelas, a Católica passou a ter uma gestão difícil, houve endividamento da instituição, que hoje consta no cadastro nacional como uma das vinte instituições devedoras do INSS; houve uma perda sensível de qualidade em alguns cursos e a perda de alunos, mas também avançou, temos que reconhecer isso. Hoje a Católica tem os mestrados e doutorados que são reconhecidos com notas máximas na CAPS, então, assim, têm segmentos que foram prejudicados, mas tiveram outros que avançaram. Essa instituição é secular, mas perdeu o bonde da história, não se transformou em PUC\Pontifícia Universidade Católica. E o que é que isso significaria? Significaria um acesso maior às universidades internacionais dos institutos confessionais, maior aporte de recursos para pesquisas com outras universidades e até mesmo órgãos do Governo Federal. Então, essa mudança que se avizinha agora por conta da mudança do reitor significa retomar essa caminhada, esse tempo que ficou para trás. Então a ideia é que a Católica hoje passe a se integrar no grupo da PUC, mas para isso tem uma longa caminhada, saneando as suas finanças, melhorando a competitividade, sobretudo ampliando a sua pesquisa científica e sua inserção na sociedade. A ideia é que não é uma revolução, mas sobretudo uma renovação passo a passo, centrada, para que não venha colocar mais em risco a instituição.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: Em determinado momento, houve no ensino superior a entrada de grandes conglomerados multinacionais no Brasil.

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: Pois é, e nessa leva a Ruy Barbosa foi vendida. No momento que foi comprada eu saí da instituição porque eles vinham com outra proposta educacional, que era a redução de custos.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: Diminuição da pesquisa…

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: E eu não concordei com isso porque achei que iria prejudicar o curso. Saí do curso e fiquei decepcionado, mas terminei assimilando e fui convidado para resgatar o curso da Faculdade Social da Bahia, o ISBA. Chegando lá comecei a fazer um projeto de resgate, mas houve também uma mudança de quadros dentro da instituição e não me senti confortável porque houve redução de custos. Não houve uma ordem capitalista, mas pela própria disputa de mercado tiveram reduções de custo e não concordei, e saí. Mas antes de sair cheguei a implantar o núcleo de cidadania da Faculdade Social e fiz uma reformulação na grade. Saindo de lá fui convidado para ir para a UNIJORGE, onde insistiram para eu ser coordenador de curso, mas eu não queria, aí me ofereceram para eu ficar como coordenador de pós-graduação, e eu passei um tempo, mas também não me identifiquei com a instituição, por conta das questões mercadológicas também. Por coincidência, nessa época ela foi vendida a um grupo americano, aí vi que não era minha “praia” e saí, resolvi me dedicar somente aos meus estudos e dar aula só na pós-graduação. Depois disso recebi um convite da Unifacs, do professor Adroaldo Leão, e fiquei um ano por lá, até que a instituição foi vendida para um grupo internacional. Recentemente, então, fui chamado para integrar um projeto de tentar recompor a Católica, e foi quando o reitor atualmente eleito, o Padre Maurício, me convidou para fazer parte da equipe dele. Fui para ser assessor dele, e agora ele me apresentou esse desafio de tentar resgatar o curso de Direito da Católica. Não resgatar no sentido de que seja ruim, pelo contrário, é valoroso, muitos professores bons, mas é um curso muito grande. São 4 mil alunos espalhados em dois campus: campus da Federação e o campus de Pituaçu, então tem problemas estruturais graves. Os projetos de recompor a educação me interessam, e um projeto que na primeira campanha do Padre Maurício tinha a proposta de resgatar a dignidade do ensino não-público, pois lá é uma entidade privada, mas confessional, e, sobretudo a qualidade do ensino. Isso me encantou e estou fazendo parte desse projeto.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: Claro que projetos desta natureza, desta envergadura, extrapolam a mera boa vontade, exigem projetos bem fundamentados e muita habilidade para lidar com tudo que vai contrariar.

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: O curso de Direito da Católica representa em termos numéricos quase 60% da receita, é o carro-chefe da Universidade Católica, dentre os vinte e tantos cursos da Universidade é o mais importante pela quantidade de alunos e pelo aporte financeiro que ele traz, mas, sobretudo, pelo trabalho que é feito. É um curso que tem núcleo de prática jurídica, que tem dentro do seu campo um juizado especial da Justiça Estadual, vários projetos sociais de atendimento ao aluno. Então, o que se pretende fazer com isso? Não basta só ter boa vontade, não basta ter experiência, mas tentar contar com os professores, tentar resgatar a autoestima dos professores antigos, pessoas que se dedicaram a vida toda aqui. Existem também professores novos que chegaram com doutorado, e que querem espaço para produzir ciência, para pensar um Direito crítico, para levar essa Teoria do Direito para as ruas, ao encontro do povo. A Católica tem esse perfil, é um curso consolidado que já teve os melhores índices do Brasil na OAB, tem o selo da OAB, mas nos últimos exames tem caído bastante. O primeiro ponto é detectar o que está acontecendo com esse curso, que tem esses valores, no entanto, não tem demonstrado isso. A primeira impressão que eu tenho por já ensinar lá há muito tempo é de que os alunos não se sentem motivados, e isso se deve também à qualidade dos egressos, pois hoje já não temos mais vestibular. A verdade é que não há mais vestibular. Com exceção da federal e da estadual as faculdades hoje fazem três, quatro vestibulares para conseguirem fechar turmas. Isso levou a mistura de alunos muito bons que vêm de escolas privadas e alunos que vêm com carência de algumas outras instituições, talvez de algumas públicas. Precisamos trabalhar com isso, o educador é isso, o educador tem que pegar esse dado bruto e lapidar, então é esse o papel, temos que enfrentar as carências e tentar levar o aluno para uma educação emancipatória, como diria Paulo Freire. Precisamos sair daquela aula magna dos professores de Direito, tentar trazer o estudante para ser o sujeito do processo educacional, e isso é muito difícil no curso de Direito. Pretendo implantar um pouco passo a passo uma metodologia de estudo de casos, a ideia é ir implantando isso, claro, discutir com os professores técnicas de aprendizagem, já estamos montando um projeto do plano de aperfeiçoamento docente, que discutiremos formas de avaliação moderna, tecnologias para usar a informação, discutir um pouco o papel do educador, do discente, da disciplina em sala de aula, desses conflitos que estão se estabelecendo hoje e um pouco também isso, que as famílias estão jogando para as universidades a responsabilidade de educar os seus filhos. É um desafio imenso, ou seja, o que estou dizendo é que não tentaremos fazer medidas cosméticas, e sim ir buscar a fonte dos problemas. Claro que isso é difícil, o problema do nível dos egressos não é um problema apenas da UCSAL, é um problema do ensino brasileiro. É um problema de parâmetros curriculares do MEC e do papel da OAB nesse controle. Então é isso que a gente vai tentar fazer, um diálogo com a sociedade.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: A questão do concurso para juiz do Trabalho, do TRT, no qual ninguém foi classificado: o que isso representa nessa reflexão crítica sobre o ensino jurídico? Como é que se consegue praticar um ensino jurídico voltado para a ciência, para uma visão sistêmica do Direito, e ao mesmo tempo esse aluno ser aprovado em concursos nos quais ainda é cobrada a letra da lei?

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: Essa preocupação eu digo que já tive quando comecei a fazer concurso público. Na minha vida profissional eu passei em uns cinco concursos: delegado, professor, procurador, oficial. Era uma preocupação muito grande, e quando me formei era a época da mudança da Constituição de 1988, então entramos em parafuso. Eu me formei em 1988 e aí alguém me disse que o sistema jurídico nacional ia mudar todo, de um sistema autoritário para um direito democrático, que era isso que fomos às ruas defender, as Diretas Já, naquela época eu como militante do então iniciante PT. Aí de repente eu digo: ‘o que é que eu vou fazer da minha vida? Eu vou ter de reaprender o Direito todo? Eu vou começar a estudar em casa todo o Direito de novo’. Mas aí descobri uma coisa, que a minha Universidade Federal de Sergipe, fui aluno de Carlos Brito e vários outros professores, então descobri que eu tinha os fundamentos. Quando você tem os fundamentos do Direito Filosófico fica mais fácil você interpretar o Direito Positivo. Essa experiência que eu tive que aprender na vida eu trouxe para as faculdades que eu ensinei. Qual é a estratégia? Dar uma boa base teórica ao aluno das humanidades, Filosofia, Sociologia, Hermenêutica, Semiótica; dar uma boa base das disciplinas técnicas, aliado ao conjunto de teoria e prática; por exemplo, é necessário que o aluno comece a praticar desde o início do curso, e não deixar só para o último semestre. E como você pode fazer isso? O MEC não exige que você faça isso no início, mas você pode criar balcões de justiça e cidadania, atendimentos populares, escritórios modelos, escritórios jurídicos populares para o aluno ir treinando, e, no final, os estágios. Eu percebi com minha experiência que muitas vezes o estágio era só de fachada, muita gente arranjava, mas nos estágios os alunos eram explorados, pois muitas vezes os escritórios exploram os estagiários como profissionais de mão de obra barata e não davam a ele o grande conhecimento. O que nós fizemos então? Nós construímos o nosso núcleo de estágio, e lá dentro desse núcleo o próprio aluno fazia seu estágio. Alguns que passavam, ou faziam sua opção podiam ir para a Defensoria Pública ou para o Ministério Público, mas sempre com a visão de que tinha que passar pela experiência em escritório privado, em advocacia pública e na prática de advocacia popular, para dar essa visão geral. Eu lembro que quando participei desse momento de estudo de Direito e Associação de Direito no movimento nacional eu conheci Luís Alberto Warat, um argentino que veio para o Brasil e tinha um livrozinho que, na época, eu pensei que devia ser um maluco, “Direito e Arte”. Eu digo: ‘vou ler esse livro’. Vi a clareza que esse homem tinha e tive a oportunidade de conhecê-lo pessoalmente, e Vará me convenceu de que eu deveria implantar uma disciplina chamada Direito e Arte na Faculdade Ruy Barbosa.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: Também disseram que era coisa de maluco…

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: Que era para aluno que não queria nada. Aí Warat veio e fez o treinamento com os professores, indicou uma aluna que era orientanda dele e morava aqui na Bahia para ser professora, eu implantei, a faculdade realmente me deu apoio e acreditou na proposta. Os alunos ficaram maravilhados, no final não tinha vaga para todos que queriam fazer. Gerou um grupo de teatro que nas peças encenavam questões do Direito Crítico. Foi uma maravilha. Hoje, em um tempo desses, encontro um desses ex-alunos que me disse: ‘professor, foi uma das melhores coisas que aprendi na vida, que foi trabalhar o Direito de forma lúdica’. Isso tudo são propostas, claro que você tem que adaptar muito ao público, ao aluno, à instituição, mas o que é a primeira proposta? Tentar avançar de um Direito Positivo, ir para-além do Direito Positivo, deixando que o aluno também apresente soluções com professores compromissados. Claro que isso é difícil, cansa, cria conflitos. Professores ficam no meio do caminho, outros criticam, mas a aprovação dos alunos na vida, e esses alunos quando vão estudar para concurso estudam prazerosamente, têm uma boa base e passam. Claro que tem que estudar porque os concursos são disputados. O concurso do Juiz de Trabalho é um exemplo disso. Também não podemos esquecer que hoje as provas são feitas com um grau de dificuldade que muitos dos que elaboram não passariam. Há um descompasso entre o que se cobra… porque, na verdade é feito para derrubar. Não podemos esquecer que a área do Direito é onde existem as corporações de ofício mais fortes, chegam a ser medievas. Eu diria que, num Estado ideal, eu não quereria o exame da ordem, no Estado brasileiro ele é necessário.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: E é necessário lembrar sempre tratar-se de uma área que sugere e tem status na sociedade…

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: Isso. Até porque ela lida com um espaço de poder específico, o Poder Judiciário. É uma possibilidade de ascensão das classes subalternas, pois você se formar, passar num concurso para juiz, ser chamado de doutor e integrar a elite com poder de decidir; segundo ponto é que é uma profissão que envolve questões financeiras altíssimas, são processos milionários. Então, essas corporações e grupos de interesses econômicos têm interesse em manter o controle sobre a formação desses grupos. Então, que profissionais do Direito nós queremos. A sociedade não precisa de advogados empresariais, precisa de advogados que lidem com a questão social.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: Raimundo, as faculdades de Direito, em geral, em decorrência da própria mercantilização da Educação, inclusive do ensino superior, acabam por ceder a esta lógica mercadológica, segundo a qual os alunos se sentem clientes. Como fazer o enfrentamento a este estado de coisas em que o professor migrou do status de produtor e emissor de conhecimento para o status de empregado?

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: É uma pergunta propícia. Ou seja, eu digo que sou crítico e você me pergunta como romper essa lógica do mercado. As instituições privadas vivem do lucro, o aluno está escasso, aqueles que eles conseguem fazer entrar na instituição tem que se manter a todo custo, e o aluno percebe isso. Os cursos são caros. Na Bahia temos uma mensalidade altíssima. Então, como romper essa lógica. Primeira coisa é que tem que assegurar a autonomia do professor em sala de aula. A relação entre professor e aluno não pode ser de consumo, que tem que ser entre o aluno e a instituição. Mas o professor tem que ter um limite e o aluno tem que ter claro isso. E este limite é dado pela Lei de Diretrizes e Bases da Educação. Mas isso envolve um processo educacional de discutir valores. Muitas famílias vão hoje às faculdades, e isso é um dado interessante, porque aquilo que acontecia no Segundo Grau hoje acontece na faculdade. Os pais vão pedir providências sobre os filhos, cobrar dos professores e isso está cada dia mais presente.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: É um terceiro ‘grauzão…’

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: Isso. É um Terceiro Grau. Então como romper isso? Tem que ter a participação do colegiado do curso; essas decisões tem que ser colegiadas; o professor de Direito tem que adequar ao novo tempo. Temos que dar respostas coletivas. Não pode ser de professor a aluno. Tem que ser uma resposta da instituição. Investir na qualidade é outra coisa. O que acontece com as instituições que apostam nisso? Estão cheias. A GV lá de São Paulo tem um curso de dois ciclos: você estuda Direito pela manhã, à tarde Economia e Contabilidade. É um curso de mais de R$ 4 mil e não tem vaga para todo mundo. E o vestibular é diferenciado, com prova de Português eliminatória, e não falta aluno, porque já há nicho de mercado. Infelizmente vão ter grupos que farão este tipo de comercialização, mas cabe ao MEC, à OAB, ao poder público controlá-las e o MEC está tentando fazer isso. Então, a resposta tem que se coletiva, tem que ser um projeto. Claro que numa universidade federal isso é mais fácil de se fazer, o professor se sente mais à vontade porque é uma universidade pública, também a qualidade do aluno é sensivelmente melhor por causa do vestibular. Isso não quer dizer que na privada não tenha aluno excelente, porque tem, mas infelizmente a gente tem se deparado com gente que não tem propensão ao Direito, gente que procura lá uma fábrica de diploma – e não vão encontrar –, pessoas que não são adequadas à pesquisa. Essa dissociação entre universidade enquanto produção do saber e universidade formadora de mão-de-obra e de diploma é um descompasso que precisa ser repensado no Brasil. É uma proposta, esta de dois ciclos: o aluno faria Humanidades na Universidade e, depois, escolheria a profissão que quer.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: Algo que o reitor Naomar cogitou para a UFBA….

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: A proposta do professor Naomar é muito coerente com isso, que é um modelo que já se usa nos Estados Unidos e que a Europa toda está revendo. Também não dá para pensar a Educação com nova tecnologia. Não posso pensar uma Educação em que o aluno vai para a sala de aula com Iphone na mão e, enquanto o professor está citando o Código de 41, ele já está acessando naquele momento a última decisão do Supremo. Assim, o professor vai ficar ultrapassado. Mas é um projeto e não se pode dizer que é fácil, pois quem vive de receitas precisa fidelizar o aluno.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: O Poder Judiciário, o STF, está assumindo o papel do Congresso Nacional, do Poder Legislativo, com uma pauta de decisões sobre temas polêmicos que, em tese, deveriam ter sido submetido à apreciação dos representantes populares. Porque está havendo esse deslocamento de poder?

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: É o ativismo político, ou o neo-constitucionalismo. Primeiro ponto é que, para um advogado positivista, é perigoso. Cadê a segurança jurídica? Quem pode legislar é o legislativo. Mas, na omissão do legislativo, o povo vai ficar com que resposta? E aí o papel de Carlos Brito, de Gilmar Mendes, que vêm de uma Escola Alemã, foi bastante clara: ‘temos que dar respostas’. E a própria constituição de 1988, que coloca outros instrumentos jurídicos. O que o Poder Judiciário está fazendo é simplesmente preencher o vácuo do Legislativo. Eu diria que é muito mais uma crise de representatividade. É perigoso porque quem tem que decidir é o representante do povo, mas se tem espaço tem-se que decidir. Haverá sempre críticas. Uma coisa é criticar 513 deputados eleitos, outra coisa é criticar 11 ministros, que se arvoram donos da razão nacional e que não foram eleitos, mas que são homens técnicos, mas são sobretudo decisões políticas. Os juízes do STF decidem politicamente. Aí, em alguns momentos, agrada uns grupos, desagrada outros, partidos ou não, mas isso tem que ser feito. Acho que a sociedade só avança na dialética. Eu sempre me aproximei do pensamento marxista, ao longo de algum período eu até desacreditei, com a queda do muro, mas hoje, mais que nunca, eu repenso esse pensamento, e acho que é a dialética que movimento e é com isso que avança. Então, eu diria que é o papel do Judiciário.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: Raimundo, recentemente, por ocasião da relatoria do Novo Código Civil, o deputado João Paulo Cunha foi praticamente impedido de assumir a presidência da comissão responsável pela relatoria do novo código por não ter formação em Direito. Caso a Câmara Federal não tivesse eleito nenhum deputado advogado, como faria. Por outro lado, outra questão, é que o Brasil é campeão em produção de lei, inclusive inconstitucionais. O que fazer para limitar essa produção legiferante?

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: Essa pergunta sua é muito instigante. Rui Barbosa foi ministro da Economia, mas não era formado em Economia. O Poder Legislativo é plural e tem que ser plural. Ele representa a sociedade. E é desse embate que surgem as leis. A Constituição nossa não é Constituição, é um Tratado. Na minha área, inclusive, o Direito Tributário, não tem nenhuma Nação no mundo que tenha tantas regras constitucionais tributárias, muitas de garantia do contribuinte. Mas não tem também um país no mundo que tenha tanto desrespeito aos direitos do cidadão como no Brasil. O que fazer como existe um conflito? Editar uma lei. É muito mais fácil editar uma lei do que mudar comportamentos, mudar a ética, mudar culturas. Então é um sonho achar que a lei resolve tudo. Há países onde só existem duas regras sobre tributos e lá se obedece, porque o Judiciário é ágil, a Nação respeita o cidadão. Então, a proliferação de lei no Brasil é muito cultural. Direito é cultura. Talvez o fato de sermos um país muito jovem, não ser um povo afeito a cumprir as normas, a separar o espaço público do privado, cada governante começa tudo do zero, embora tenha um princípio constitucional do planejamento. O Brasil é um país rico, porém perdulário. E é assim também nas leis. Cabe ao povo barrar isso, ir às ruas, como está fazendo com a questão da Copa. Dizer: ‘Nós não gostamos disso e queremos a reforma política, que não sai; queremos a reforma tributária, que não sai’. Chega um ponto em que a sociedade tem que ir para a rua.

BLOG DO FÁBIO SENA: Uma curiosidade é que o senhor já morou em Vitória da Conquista. Como e quando foi esta experiência?

RAIMUNDO ANDRADE: Quando eu passei no concurso de procurador para a Bahia eu já era funcionário público do Estado de Sergipe e tinha que escolher uma comarca. Eu era o primeiro colocado e podia escolher. Tinha um filho pequeno na época e me disseram que tinha um lugar bem diferente da Bahia de Salvador, do Recôncavo. É uma Bahia que é mais mineira. E eu estava terminando o mestrado. Me disseram que ficava na divisa de Bahia com Minas, mais perto de São Paulo onde eu precisava estar para me encontrar com o professor Paulo Barros, meu orientador. Isso foi em 1997, 98. Aí, por curiosidade, descobri que Vitória da Conquista tem uma grande comunidade sergipana, notadamente aquelas pessoas que andam no mercado, e aí procurei saber de meu como era e ele me deu boas referências. Coincidentemente minha esposa tinha uma amiga cuja mãe morava em Conquista, resolvemos fazer uma visita e nos encantamos: um clima maravilhoso, as pessoas maravilhosas, qualidade de vida entre as melhores do Brasil. Meu filho ficou maravilhado. Só fiquei com saudade da praia. A primeira coisa que senti foi que não tinha faculdade de Direito, acho que se tivesse criado quando eu estava lá, eu não teria saído. Fizemos boas amizades, fui conviver com auditores, mas aí, depois de um ano, surge um convite: assumir o cargo que se chamava gerente de assessoramento jurídico, em Salvador. Minha mulher já estava adorando Conquista. Fato é que vim para Salvador, mas até hoje nós voltamos a Conquista, pelo menos uma vez por ano. Gosto muito de Conquista.

 

Fonte: Blog Fábio Sena

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